Penns, Upper Watergate and Facebook

 

A couple of years ago I wrote here about local industrial sites which were listed in a booklet published in 1982  - The Industrial Archaeology of Southeast London.  Obviously, what it says about many of the sites is a bit out of date now but hopefully I found something interesting to say about all of them. I thought, perhaps I should go back to that booklet because there are of things in it that I’d never looked at. The earliest Greenwich site in it is listed under ‘Deptford’ – but it is actually in Greenwich, right on the border with Lewisham and it’s described as ‘Boilermaker’s Shop. Borthwick St. SE.’. The description of the site is quite long compared to most others – but what it says is:

“The only evidence of John Penn’s occupation on the land side of building is a cast iron bollard inscribed J Penn and Son, Deptford. A more impressive view of the River side could only be obtained when the tide is out by walking along the deteriorating ferry hard, the access to which is along the alley at the west end of the building. The six bay facade has semicircular arches with stucco mouldings and keystones. Above is a central parapet with scrolls and the painted inscription “J Palmer Limited, Payne’s Wharf”.  At the present time the site is occupied by Londegg Limited, manufacturers of egg products.”

Now that was written in 1982 when things are very different to today and obviously they’ve changed since and I’ll go into that in a moment. I wrote up this site for a Weekender article a very long time ago - one of the earliest ones I ever did. I also incorporated a piece about it into my Deptford Creek  book. Both of those pieces were part of articles about Upper Watergate – and I explained with both that new information about the site had been published by a local researcher.  I am aware that the people who wrote the original SELIA in 1982 entry very rightly thought the link with Penns was the most interesting thing there. Perhaps I should explain that the SELIA booklet originated in evening class at Goldsmiths College which studied industrial archaeology including an element on the history of engineering in which, locally, Penns had a major role.

Penn’s main factory was on the Wickes site on Blackheath Road. They are most famous for their marine steam engines used in many prestigious ships. I am not aware of any major study of them -  and would be very grateful if someone could recommend one.  There is a biography of John Penn -John Penn and Sons of Greenwich by Richard Hartree in 2008.

 

When I did the research for the previous Weekender article and the Riverside book I very quickly realised this site was much more interesting than just the Payne’s building and now I honestly think it is even more interesting than I thought then.  In the early 17^th century it was called Stone Wharf and it was quite clear that there quite a bit of activity on the site before that and there is a very interesting archaeological report which found the remains of all sorts of structures.  Obviously now things have changed and the wharf has been rebuilt as flats and offices and it’s become a residential area.

Now one of the reasons why I’m writing about this now is that the Greenwich Industrial History Society Facebook page, which I administer, has had a lot of posts about that site - or what people think is that site  - over the last couple of weeks.  Some quite interesting things have come up which should take us all sorts of new information and ideas. This is partly because Facebook is open to everyone and comments are made by people who may know nothing about research on the site but have information and comment on all sorts of issues, leading all of us to re-evaluate and move on.  

Now, when the SELIA entry was made It was assumed that the most interesting thing at the wharf was that it had been used by Penn’s Engineering as a boiler shop and that’s the arcaded building on the riverfront there now had something to do with them or perhaps for a later occupant. However its since been established that it was actually built for a railway company who were there before Penns and this was described in a local blog htp someone was speculating ps://shipwrightspalace.blogspot.com/2010/03/john-penn-marine-engineers-deptford-and.html.  The Shipwright’s Palace is the Master Shipwright Building – a vast 18^th century house and offices originally part of Deptford Royal Dockyard - and it’s just the other side of the wall which runs along the Upper Watergate passageway.

Clearly for SELIA one of the important things is a bollard in the road outside which links it to Penns. One of the people who has commented on the Facebook page has produced a picture which shows that the Penn’s inscription is right at the bottom of it and also suggests that this is not about Penns owning the site but that they manufactured the bollard which is also a boundary marker. Personally I am far from sure that an elite engineering firm like Penns would make street bollards – that sort of work usually thing goes to small local ironworks. Someone was speculating on the Facebook page that the bollard was a captured  French cannon altered to provide street furniture. I’m not at all sure about that but I do recall on the one occasion I went onto Dockyard site when it was operated by Convoys that there were some cannon on the riverside converted  into bollards - and I wonder what happened to them?

Most interestingly about the bollard and the corner of Borthwick  Street with Upper Watergate is the comment by Krz which is worth quoting in full “Observe carefully the pillar the bollard is up against. There is one on the other side. These pillars have a moulded base that once supported an arch commensurate with those on the river. A bomb hit this spot, also taking out a section of the listed wall.”

On Facebook there is obviously a whole varied mix of people making  comments and most of the things they say are very interesting. I had heard people speculate before that the stone paved Upper Watergate passageway was the oldest street surface in London.  And I think that’s something very much up for discussion although Krz from Master Shipwright’s posted that some of the stones which people are talking about were relaid in the 1990s for Deptford City Cahallenge. Someone else says  that their father-in-law was told that it was laid by French prisoners of war while another says it is “a bugger to cycle down”.

One person mentions that it is a right of way and I added that the waterman’s stairs at the end must have been licenced and that very likely there is a Parliamentary Act covering them which ensures the right of licenced waterman to pick people up there and take them wherever they wanted to go. They were quite strictly regulated and their rules were apparently copied when the London taxi service was set up. It was also some discussion about existence of a ferry at the end of the stairs but while it was agreed there must have been one, nobody has come up with any definite information.

Some people have mentioned the adjacent Royal Dockyard – as one person said “the birthplace of the greatest Navy the world has ever known”.

There have been a number of very interesting Facebook comments from people who I think are actually talking about a different site but one which is only a hundred yards or so down river.  They say that they have documents and all sorts of information about a slipway and also inland sites connected to it. This very much sounds like the slip at what was Lower Watergate which is now owned and operated by the Ahoy Centre and which has a very complicated history which I am not sure if anybody has really managed to disentangle.

Someone has mentioned Gordon Shipyard which was there. Greenwich Industrial History Society has had a speaker on Gordon’s - Chris Ellmers - although most of what he said and what is written is about Gordon’s main site which was a bit more up river towards Rotherhithe. I am not sure about what he has published on this, and will ask him.

Some other people have mentioned a ‘Rodney foundry’ which I think must have been as 20^th century works because information comes very largely from family history sources and it’s just the sort of thing we lose out on in our book and archive led research. I hope we hear more about them soon and that someone is able to publish information about them.

It really is an interesting site.